Troubleshooting Peat-a-tarianism Part II: Thyroid, Pregnenolone & DHEA
Jan 9, 2012 | by Danny Roddy 
Similar to aspirin and niacinamide, supplemental thyroid, pregenenolone, and DHEA can be useful in reversing the damage done by chronic stress.
While the foundation of Peat-a-tarianism is a diet that increases the metabolic rate (body temperature & pulse), you can think of these as additional tools at your disposal.
Thyroid
Whereas dietary changes (like the ones outlined here) in thyroid status may take months or even years, supplementing thyroid, whether it's desiccated or T3, can start "moving things in the right direction" within a matter of minutes, days, or weeks.
Besides the obvious benefit of increasing a slowed metabolism, there may be additional benefits of consuming thyroid supplements. If you'll remember a few posts ago, we discussed Peat's belief that the pituitary should be kept "as quiet as possible." Taking thyroid will suppress thyrotropin (TSH), which Peat believes to be a pro-stress, pro-inflammatory hormone:
"Some types of thyroid cancer can usually be controlled by keeping TSH completely suppressed. Since TSH produces reactions in cells as different as fibroblasts and fat cells, pigment cells in the skin, mast cells and bone marrow cells (Whetsell, et al., 1999), it won't be surprising if it turns out to have a role in the development of a variety of cancers, including melanoma.
Rob Turner has another interesting study linking "normal" TSH to fatal coronary heart disease.
Some notes notes on thyroid supplementation:
- Get your TSH, free T3, free T4, and reverse T3 checked. If you have low T3 you most likely have a conversion issue (stress, inflammation, nutrient cofactors). Liver and seafood, along with some aspirin may help in this area.
- If you do well on desiccated thyroid, thyroidoligists Dr. Barnes and Dr. Starr found that 3-3.5 grains of desiccated thyroid worked out best in most of their patients. That's considered to be a lot of thyroid, but Peat has noted that a healthy person usually makes about 4 grains worth of thyroid hormone a day.
- Be aware that nutritional requirements increase when implementing supplemental thyroid. Vitamin A, zinc, magnesium, and various b-vitamins need to be supplied by the diet to avoid potential issues.
Wait! Wait! You have to support your adrenals first!
I wrote an article, over a year ago, suggesting that adrenal fatigue was a bogus concept. I came to this scientific conclusion (JK) by years of scouring former-steroid-abusing-body-builder-recovery forums, the now defunct Stop The Thyroid Madness Forums, and of course my own experience with Cortef. It became apparent that "adrenal fatigue," like "detox," has no beginning, no end, and in the light of Peat-a-tarianism, makes absolutely no sense.
Peat's paradigm suggests that serotonin, estrogen, and endotoxin precede adrenal stress and both act directly on the adrenal cortex causing a release of cortisol. Nutrition (especially protein and sugar) and thyroid are the most important variables in keeping a lid on estrogen and serotonin. Supplementing with cortisol has no role in this model, except if you were jonesing to make things exceptionally worse (long-term).
Pregnenolone
Pregnenonlone is the precursor to all steroid hormones. Active thyroid hormone (T3) combines together with vitamin A and cholesterol forming pregnenolone. From here pregnenolone can be broken down into numerous "pro-stress" and "anti-stress" hormones.
Supplemental pregnenolone comes in two flavors: oral and transdermal. While I've taken transdermal pregnenolone during my anti-aging-welcome-to-hell-HRT-years, I don't remember any noticeable effects. Oral pregnenolone, however, is known to have an anxiolytic effect similar to Valium.
Peat explains pregnenolone's role in guarding against stress:
"In excess, natural cortisone or estrogen can be dangerous, but when there is an abundance of pregnenolone, their side effects are prevented or minimized."
"In a healthy young person or animal, taking even a large dose of pregnenolone has no hormone-like or drug-like action at all. It is unique in this way. But if the animal or person is under stress, and producing more cortisone than usual, taking pregnenolone causes the cortisone to come down to the normal level"
The most interesting mechanism behind oral pregnenolone may be its "face-lifting" action:
"Many people have noticed that pregnenolone has a "face-lifting" action. This effect seems to be produced by improved circulation to the skin, and by an actual contraction of some muscle-like cells in the skin."
Thoughts on pregnenolone:
- Dosages are all over the map on this one. Peat has noted that he used to take 300 mg a week, which is a fairly large dose. Those using pregnenolone on a consistent basis usually dose it around 25-50 mg per day.
- In an interview Peat noted that a consultant used both thyroid and pregnenolone to increase sperm quantity/quality.
DHEA
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is the most abundant androgen circulating in humans. DHEA rises in times of stress, but in the face of chronic stress bottoms out, leaving unopposed cortisol.
Replacing DHEA through supplementation seems to be a mixed bag. Those who do benefit from DHEA note an increased in body temperature, better mood, better libido, and an increased resistance to stress.
While most hypothyroid folk seem to be low in DHEA, supplementation can can be risky. Starting with extremely small amounts may be wise:
"Young people produce about 12 to 15 milligrams of DHEA per day, and that amount decreases by about 2 mg. per day for every decade after the age of 30. This is one of the reasons that young people eat more without getting fat, and tolerate cold weather better: DHEA, like the thyroid hormone, increases our heat production and ability to burn calories. At the age of 50, about 4 mg. of DHEA per day will usually restore the level of DHEA in the blood to a youthful level. It is important to avoid taking more than needed, since some people (especially if they are deficient in progesterone, pregnenolone, or thyroid) can turn the excess into estrogen or testosterone, and large amounts of those sex hormones can disturb the function of the thymus gland and the liver."
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Reader Comments (16)
How do you feel about supplementing with 3,3 Diiodo L Thyronine and 3,5 Diiodo L Thyronine if T3 is not available.
@cja,
I have no experience with it. What product are you referring to?
One of the more interesting blogs out there. You really need to do daily posts, even if they're just tiny musings.
So I've been drinking soda lately to experiment but I've noticed that it's too acidic for my teeth so I'm switching over to sugar.
I've just tried Lyle's Golden Syrup for the first time today and find it absolutely fantastic. Does a homemade syrup boiled for a while taste anything like it? I can get some really high quality unrefined palm sugar from the Asian Markets n was thinking bout making a huge batch.
Once again thx for putting this information out into the world.
Can you only get thyroid supplements via doctor prescription?
With regards to Vitamin A; anyone know what sort amount or range (upper/lower limits?) from food does Ray Peat suggest/recommend?
@T_O,
Everyday?! I can barely do two a week! :)
I've never tried that type of syrup before, so I'm not sure.
@George,
Technically.
@Daz,
It depends on the metabolic rate. It has a "U-shaped" curve, with too much suppressing thyroid, but too little doing the same thing.
Peat has experimented with up to 100,000 IU a day when he was out in the sun and his metabolic rate was very high, but noted that most hypothyroid people only need about 5,000 IU a day.
I can certainly testify to the power of desiccated thyroid, coupled with some of Ray Peat´s diet recommendations, to dig oneself out of a hormone mess. As a mid 30s female, I do not have an interesting story about hair loss. This being one of the few blogs that seems to get it, I will tell the story anyway. In May 2011 I discovered that my 24-7 progressively worsening joint pain, and a suddenly appearing skin redness, disappeared when I cut gluten. Instead of being grateful for being able to sleep again because my joints did not kill me, I just lost it. I got completely obsessed with diet. Like isolating myself and listening to 40 episodes of Robb Wolf´s podcast in a weekend. Early June, after listening to Paleo-Nerd-A-Thon (a podcast you hosted Danny. Should have shut those guys down, honestly), I went on the (unintentionally low carb) GAPS-Lalonde autoimmune torture protocol, which basically meant eliminating almost everything. After two weeks, I regained my senses and went on something more humane and sensible (Jaminet´s the Perfect Health Diet), but the damage was done. T3 - killed. Menstrual period - gone. Libido - gone. Sudden racing heart in the middle of the night. Sleep - gone. My brain was almost gone too. Started making really stupid mistakes at work, like sending the wrong emails to the wrong people. A general feeling of crappiness. By mid-November, after having implemented every single Chris Kresser recommendation "to support my immune system", I felt worse than I ever had in my life. I realized that I would be stupider by the day if I continued looking in the same places for answers to the problems that started after I went "Paleo". This site that I somehow started reading, and I think Matt Stone´s blog, led me to the work of Ray Peat. I even got your ebook : ) And I finally stared understanding the mechanisms in the body and how it had all gone wrong for me (already pretty lean, with a 4-pack no less) with a ketogenic diet, even if it was only two weeks. I started eating more carbs in the form of fruits and orange juice (was already eating a fair share of "safe starches"). Had a raw carrot every morning. Eat desserts every day - with pleasure. Eat lots of diary. I even started drinking milk, which I had not done since I was six years old. Was already low on PUFA and had "been on coconut oil" for some time. I started feeling better. I decided to go one step further: just before Christmas I started taking half a grain of Thyroid-S per day. Within a few days, I could literally feel the hormonal changes in my body. Libido started coming back. My head started clearing up. I slept trough the night several days in a row. Within 17 days my period came back. I am now on 3/4 of a grain. I do not think I will go up to 3-4 per day, but I will continue to experiment and be open. I am so f***** grateful for this site, and for J & J Rubin´s podcasts with Ray Peat. Simply reading his articles, while I "love them" now, would have been too daunting in the beginning.
Any thoughts on long-term effects of desiccated thyroid supplementation? Would it down regulate the "natural" mechanisms?
Awesome post, ET. Thanks for sharing.
@ET,
A small tear fell on my pepsi can when I read your comment. I'm sorry.
I was in early stages of Peat-a-tarianism when I was hosting that podcast. I never felt comfortable doing it, ever, and is why I left the show.
I'm glad you're recovering and getting healthy.
I'm honestly not aware of any side effects from long-term thyroid supplementation. As long as nutrient status is secure, you should be good.
@Mike78, thank you!
@Danny, I guess you have regained all your good karma with the info on this site - and more. To be honest, you had quite an awkward radio voice on the Healthy Skeptic podcast. If I ever start a blog, I might write a "I used to think Danny Roddy was a douche. I was wrong" post.
@ET,
Hah!
No doubt I have a strange radio voice, but it may have been less strange If I wasn't feigning interest in topics I cared nothing about! But who's fault is that?
Danny, there is a Yahoo group who believe that RT3 (formed as a result of taking T4 containing medications) blocks T3 receptors, and so focus on dosing T3 only several times a day to apparently clear T3 receptors of RT3. Its supposed to take about 13 weeks to "clear". I have heard RP talk about regular small doses of T3 being a sound strategy, but havent really heard him talk much about RT3. I may be wrong, but the "blocked receptor" concept seems a bit bogus to me, and the group, naturally, are all about those durn adrenals too. Just wondered if you knew anything more about T4 overload becoming a problem in itself via conversion to RT3. Thanks.
@Alan,
I'm not sure about the theory, but RP has mentioned taking cytomel for RT3.
He has also mentioned a daily carrot. Endotoxin (any stress) can increase its production.
Taking too much T4 can definitely be an issue. Probably why I never did well on desiccated.
I asked Dr.Peat about this subject, and he told me that Cytomel have a very short half life in the body, so in the long run it's more convenient to use some T4 with it, and T4 alone can be used to suppress the antibodies in the case of autoimmunity like Hashimoto's.
Personally I don't have any experience with thyroid or hormone medications,right now I only take Vitamin E and D3, I'm going to add Aspirin with K2 and slowly start taking Cynomel+Cynoplus,
I'm quite hesitant to try Pregnenolone after reading that it might lead to some bad side-effects(including hair-loss) in doses higher than 1-5mg a day.
I actually remember reading somewhere that raised Estradiol Levels can cause a pseudo hypothyroidism, & that many people who have this condition take blood tests for it & are told they do not have a problem because the Hormones the doctors are testing for arn't neccessarliy out of balance, while all the Negative symptoms of Hypothyroidism rear their ugly head.
Also @Danny Roddy, first sorry for adressing you on this site, I don't know if I should or not, but here goes,
I am currently curious about the effets Estrogens have on DHT levels, from what I've seen (in my own expierance & through one particularily hard to find study done on the subject)
elevated Estrogen levels cause DHT levels to simultaneously rise, However, since they are a powerful Androgen, they cause many of the secondary characteristics in men (I.E. Body hair/hirstuism, & facial hair) while high estrogen in men obviously produces weight gain/ Premature sking aging. so I was wondering if this is why many bald men you see also tend to be very heavy & or hairy (although I have been Noticing more thin bald men & my theory in this case is that even though they may not be overweight they -there seems to be extremes in bald men, your either over weight or extremely thin, no middle way- don't get alot of pyhsical exersize & their muscles have atrophied so while giving the appearance of "thiness" they are actually just as unhealthy as an overweight man with similiar problems" I am also curios with the possibility that high testosterone in young men is not the cause of (major) muscle gain & facial hair or body hair.
I think that Testorone is more responsible for lean muscle mass & quicker metabolism & I think its been given the bad rap for Dht's effects on the body (which only happens in the prescence of excess Estrogens) in Women, I think that hairloss is a problem when Estrogen levels are Lowered by excess Testosterone (through enviormental & dietary factors)
& THAT excess Testosterone, creates DHT which then is responsible for Female hairloss/hirstuism.
ohay before I start rambling I better stop. any how sorry again, I know thats quite lengthy I'm just curious if perhaps peoples misperceptions about these horomones (and what we've been Miscorrectly told about them) is the cause behind so may peoples health problems (including Hairloss among them)
I was also curious if you have had any cases of people mentioning hair growth after re-directing their hormones, as I actually think that it is possible for people who have considerable hairloss (and still have vellus hairs) to regrow their hair, whats your opinion on this? sorry again, & thanks, David
Danny,
hi, I just discovered your site. I've been following Matt Stone for a long time and starting to put some pieces together. I have a strange problem that no one seems able to address but I wonder if you might have some thoughts about it. In a nutshell, I have a lot of shedding hair for the past year, and T3 makes it much worse. When I stop the T3, it slows down but does not stop. I would like to be able to take my T3 since I lost 15 pounds on it, effortlessly, and felt great. Right now I am scared to take it because my hair is getting so thin. My theory right now is that there is something else out of whack, or some nutrient missing, that causes the hair shedding and the T3 exacerbates it. If you have any ideas on things I can try I would be seriously grateful. I've had lots of hormone testing done, tried testosterone and DHEA, nothing makes any difference. I'm female btw, 37 years old. Thinking I might start trying some daily aspirin and orange juice...?